kondur_007
01-13 08:45 PM
This indeed is a very bad news. It looks to me that someone is frying a bigger fish here...
If antis target the areas of immigration that are no "well defined" so far (H1b rules is one example, another could be AC21 same or similar job and yet another could be "permanent job" after greencard), it could create a lot of problems and may even practically shut down all legal immigration.
This will only increat outsourcing and actually hurt US economy and jobs...too bad that "blinded" politicians do not recognize this.
If antis target the areas of immigration that are no "well defined" so far (H1b rules is one example, another could be AC21 same or similar job and yet another could be "permanent job" after greencard), it could create a lot of problems and may even practically shut down all legal immigration.
This will only increat outsourcing and actually hurt US economy and jobs...too bad that "blinded" politicians do not recognize this.
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kshitijnt
03-29 06:06 PM
I just look at this pool and surprised that Advani is running so hot in the pool. I am from Gujarat and I can tell that advani will be worst as PM. when given a Chance in BJP ministry he had worst performance as Home minister. I think he had not managed anything in his life and after his rise in BJP, BJP lost his charm.
I think some one with good management skill like MMohan, MODI, Chidambaram etc are lot more sutiabel than Advani.
Advani should retire from politics before even Bajpai. Even lalu will be better as PM than Advani looking to how advani managed Home Ministry and how Lalu Managed Railway.
Thank you for your personal opinion. India was doing well when Vajpayee was PM. He is not some management honcho. It is a vision of the person that is more important. Manmohan is a learned man and has provided country with real good service but real power rests with Sonia and her son Rahul.
Hence. Its a question of ideology in the long run and given my background, BJP govt suits me better than Congress. So I prefer Advani over Sonia.
I think some one with good management skill like MMohan, MODI, Chidambaram etc are lot more sutiabel than Advani.
Advani should retire from politics before even Bajpai. Even lalu will be better as PM than Advani looking to how advani managed Home Ministry and how Lalu Managed Railway.
Thank you for your personal opinion. India was doing well when Vajpayee was PM. He is not some management honcho. It is a vision of the person that is more important. Manmohan is a learned man and has provided country with real good service but real power rests with Sonia and her son Rahul.
Hence. Its a question of ideology in the long run and given my background, BJP govt suits me better than Congress. So I prefer Advani over Sonia.
Subst_labor
03-16 01:24 PM
If the prior experience was related to your field, then I don't see why not. You may want to hurry because if USIS comes with 45-day labor expiration rule soon (which they may), you may not be able to use the prior approved labor.
arent you in conflict with chanduv23's reply? i am stuck between both of the ideas:) not worried about the bill, its not a law yet..
arent you in conflict with chanduv23's reply? i am stuck between both of the ideas:) not worried about the bill, its not a law yet..
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hopefulgc
02-13 07:36 PM
Done.
hopefulgc - please dedicate some time and update your first post with more information on lawsuit, you may want to quote lazycis 's posts and other information.
A lot of people may not be very knowledgable and may backoff when they see the word "lawsuit".
Those who are saying YES on the poll - it is assumed that you will not backoff - if you have not yet updated your profile on IV - please update your complete profile - this will show that you can be counted on.
hopefulgc - please dedicate some time and update your first post with more information on lawsuit, you may want to quote lazycis 's posts and other information.
A lot of people may not be very knowledgable and may backoff when they see the word "lawsuit".
Those who are saying YES on the poll - it is assumed that you will not backoff - if you have not yet updated your profile on IV - please update your complete profile - this will show that you can be counted on.
more...
johnamit
07-12 04:11 PM
I always has that question what is the real difference, hear people sayinig more taxes less salary and all that but don't know the actual difference yet.
Will appreciate if someone can shed more light or post a link.
Every time I hear "Canadian taxes are so much higher", I respond back with "really ? how much are you paying a month for health insurance?". I suggest a typical breadwinner with spouse + 2 dependents is probably paying $500 / mo + in health insurance premiums. Add that $6K / yr to your US tax bill, then compare it to your Canadian tax bill. ;)
- GS
Will appreciate if someone can shed more light or post a link.
Every time I hear "Canadian taxes are so much higher", I respond back with "really ? how much are you paying a month for health insurance?". I suggest a typical breadwinner with spouse + 2 dependents is probably paying $500 / mo + in health insurance premiums. Add that $6K / yr to your US tax bill, then compare it to your Canadian tax bill. ;)
- GS
akred
02-18 08:50 PM
As per the facts first baby boomers will start collecting benefits in 2008 and by 2020 when most boomers are 60+ there will be 2.6 workers paying social security and medicare for every retiree versus 5 workers now
Is there anybody looking at this angle for increasing GC cap/upper limit ??
I find in this situation, Churchill's speech has a more dramatic impact.
http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/LngHrdWr.html
The peoples of the British Empire and of the United States number nearly two hundred millions ...
have more wealth, more technical resources, and they make more steel, than the whole of the rest of the world put together.
Substitute India and China for the British Empire and the United States, and reflect on how soon the 3 criteria will be met.
Is there anybody looking at this angle for increasing GC cap/upper limit ??
I find in this situation, Churchill's speech has a more dramatic impact.
http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/LngHrdWr.html
The peoples of the British Empire and of the United States number nearly two hundred millions ...
have more wealth, more technical resources, and they make more steel, than the whole of the rest of the world put together.
Substitute India and China for the British Empire and the United States, and reflect on how soon the 3 criteria will be met.
more...
ramus
07-04 09:03 AM
Thanks..
Could you look at the following report and try to find email of the reporter and let him/her know what happened with us.
http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/news/newsbyid.asp?id=68312&cat=Today's+Most+Popular+Stories&more=/news/newspopular.asp
Thanks..
We need multipal people working on different action items.. Lets spend our holiday doing something for us/IV.
also sent it to the drudge report...if he picks it up other talk show hots will pick it up too.
Could you look at the following report and try to find email of the reporter and let him/her know what happened with us.
http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/news/newsbyid.asp?id=68312&cat=Today's+Most+Popular+Stories&more=/news/newspopular.asp
Thanks..
We need multipal people working on different action items.. Lets spend our holiday doing something for us/IV.
also sent it to the drudge report...if he picks it up other talk show hots will pick it up too.
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gapala
04-20 04:08 PM
Guys,
Poll is ok, but what about our voting rights? Many countries allow citizens to use proxy vote / vote by mail to exercise their rights... I remember that there was a bill in 2006 on the floor of parlement to allow this for NRI's and Congress party was dead against such a bill due to some reason... Not sure what happened after that...
Its rediculous that about a million folks in this country and many more around the world, (I believe 30 million or so NRI's in total) are deprived of their fundamental contitutional right to vote, well a small portion compared to total population. Its unfortunate.
Poll is ok, but what about our voting rights? Many countries allow citizens to use proxy vote / vote by mail to exercise their rights... I remember that there was a bill in 2006 on the floor of parlement to allow this for NRI's and Congress party was dead against such a bill due to some reason... Not sure what happened after that...
Its rediculous that about a million folks in this country and many more around the world, (I believe 30 million or so NRI's in total) are deprived of their fundamental contitutional right to vote, well a small portion compared to total population. Its unfortunate.
more...
saileshdude
07-06 02:28 PM
Hello,
This is the question for the attorney. I have been laid off and my company is going to revoke my I-140 within 30 days. My I-140 was approved in 2006 and I485 applied last July 2007. My questions are
1) what is the current trend if I1-40 is revoked . Does uscis send an RFE or NOID or a direct denial for I-485. How long does it take for revocation once employer submits. If I am not able to find a job before this happens will it impact my I485 application.
2) If I am able to find a job and transfer H1 to employer B before I-140 from company A is revoked and then if again I have to switch jobs to say employer C , can I get extension of H1 just based on pending I-485 even though underlying I-140 is revoked considering I am porting using AC21.
This is the question for the attorney. I have been laid off and my company is going to revoke my I-140 within 30 days. My I-140 was approved in 2006 and I485 applied last July 2007. My questions are
1) what is the current trend if I1-40 is revoked . Does uscis send an RFE or NOID or a direct denial for I-485. How long does it take for revocation once employer submits. If I am not able to find a job before this happens will it impact my I485 application.
2) If I am able to find a job and transfer H1 to employer B before I-140 from company A is revoked and then if again I have to switch jobs to say employer C , can I get extension of H1 just based on pending I-485 even though underlying I-140 is revoked considering I am porting using AC21.
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copsmart
09-24 02:19 PM
WSJ
Executive Editor
a.murray@wsj.com
WSJ
Senior Editor
darren.mcdermott@wsj.com
MSNBC
letters@msnbc.com
NBC
today@nbcuni.com
Roll Call
Editorial Department (http://www.rollcall.com/cgi-bin/udt/fdc.collector?client_id=rollcall&form_id=maileditform)
CNN would trash our email or forward it to Lou anyway, so not included in the list.
Executive Editor
a.murray@wsj.com
WSJ
Senior Editor
darren.mcdermott@wsj.com
MSNBC
letters@msnbc.com
NBC
today@nbcuni.com
Roll Call
Editorial Department (http://www.rollcall.com/cgi-bin/udt/fdc.collector?client_id=rollcall&form_id=maileditform)
CNN would trash our email or forward it to Lou anyway, so not included in the list.
more...
mantric
12-13 12:36 PM
Here's the percentages of the top 10 populations of the world by nationality. How many of them are more than 7% ?
China 20.0 %
India 17.2 %
United States 4.6 %
Indonesia 3.4 %
Brazil 2.8 %
Pakistan 2.6 %
Nigeria 2.5 %
Russia 2.2 %
Bangladesh 2.1 %
Japan 2.0 %
Based on this one can conclude that the 7% nationality rule is a veiled effort to limit Indian and Chinese immigrants specifically. Does this not amount to discrimination by nationality ? In addition we as legal immigrants are taxed without any representation. Taxation without representation was the reason the US was created in the first place.
US history is full of examples where discrimination existed in one form or another and these discriminations were sucessfully challenged. A few examples are women's voting rights, minority voting rights and gerrymandering. These are good examples to study where the affected people had no legal voice to begin with.
The civil rights movement is a recent example. There were existing laws that limited people from voting based on their literacy levels in the southern states. The literacy requirement for voting was really a thinly veiled attempt to limit voting rights of african americans for as long as possible. The civil rights movement was about changing these artificial laws to give voting rights to people who legally had no voice.
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/intro/intro_c.htm
You don't need to be a lawyer to speak up for your hardships as a law abiding resident. This country has tremendous protections for people living here which is what makes it great. We as an immigrant community need to build our awareness of US history and government if we expect things to change.
China 20.0 %
India 17.2 %
United States 4.6 %
Indonesia 3.4 %
Brazil 2.8 %
Pakistan 2.6 %
Nigeria 2.5 %
Russia 2.2 %
Bangladesh 2.1 %
Japan 2.0 %
Based on this one can conclude that the 7% nationality rule is a veiled effort to limit Indian and Chinese immigrants specifically. Does this not amount to discrimination by nationality ? In addition we as legal immigrants are taxed without any representation. Taxation without representation was the reason the US was created in the first place.
US history is full of examples where discrimination existed in one form or another and these discriminations were sucessfully challenged. A few examples are women's voting rights, minority voting rights and gerrymandering. These are good examples to study where the affected people had no legal voice to begin with.
The civil rights movement is a recent example. There were existing laws that limited people from voting based on their literacy levels in the southern states. The literacy requirement for voting was really a thinly veiled attempt to limit voting rights of african americans for as long as possible. The civil rights movement was about changing these artificial laws to give voting rights to people who legally had no voice.
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/intro/intro_c.htm
You don't need to be a lawyer to speak up for your hardships as a law abiding resident. This country has tremendous protections for people living here which is what makes it great. We as an immigrant community need to build our awareness of US history and government if we expect things to change.
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bayarea07
07-21 10:40 PM
Another thing i found out about these amway guys is they lie about
credentials of their upsells and about themselves just to show them as superior and successful in life, i know few friends of mine who though a big failure in the technical job they do (one has been kicked out of the job because he did not knew his work) but he keeps posting patents on free internet sites and writes technical blogs (most of them copied from different internet sites) just to show his downlines how bigshot he is.
Complete wastage of time and money, do it if you want to alienate all your existing friends and family and if you did decide to join , be ready to be brainwashed by the new friends and group that you are going to have by making everybody else beside that group as a loser.
By the Way when they introduce you to their boss ,their boss usually shows you a real check of 8-9K, is it usually a fake check given to them as part of the kit
credentials of their upsells and about themselves just to show them as superior and successful in life, i know few friends of mine who though a big failure in the technical job they do (one has been kicked out of the job because he did not knew his work) but he keeps posting patents on free internet sites and writes technical blogs (most of them copied from different internet sites) just to show his downlines how bigshot he is.
Complete wastage of time and money, do it if you want to alienate all your existing friends and family and if you did decide to join , be ready to be brainwashed by the new friends and group that you are going to have by making everybody else beside that group as a loser.
By the Way when they introduce you to their boss ,their boss usually shows you a real check of 8-9K, is it usually a fake check given to them as part of the kit
more...
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Macaca
06-28 09:01 AM
From page 35 of Citizenship and Immigration Services Ombudsman Annual Report to Congress June 2007 (http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/CISOMB_Annual%20Report_2007.pdf).
There will be severe consequences from rapid fluctuations in priority dates.
If the priority date became current today, due to delayed USCIS processing and thus underutilization of visa numbers, some have predicted that within a few months as many as 500,000 to 750,000 individuals now residing in the United States under a temporary worker visa could apply for a green card.
Additionally, DOL’s recent backlog elimination efforts, scheduled to be completed by September 30, 2007, are predicted to add 70,000 or more approved labor certifications yielding as many as 170,000 additional green card applications.
As USCIS begins to complete these applications and request visa numbers from DOS, the 140,000 statutorily authorized visa numbers will be used. DOS then will be required to retrogress priority dates. Consequently, most applicants in this scenario will find themselves trapped where as they anticipated timely receipt of a green card, their wait exceeds seven or more years. In addition, all future employment-based green card applicants effectively would be barred from applying for many years.
There will be severe consequences from rapid fluctuations in priority dates.
If the priority date became current today, due to delayed USCIS processing and thus underutilization of visa numbers, some have predicted that within a few months as many as 500,000 to 750,000 individuals now residing in the United States under a temporary worker visa could apply for a green card.
Additionally, DOL’s recent backlog elimination efforts, scheduled to be completed by September 30, 2007, are predicted to add 70,000 or more approved labor certifications yielding as many as 170,000 additional green card applications.
As USCIS begins to complete these applications and request visa numbers from DOS, the 140,000 statutorily authorized visa numbers will be used. DOS then will be required to retrogress priority dates. Consequently, most applicants in this scenario will find themselves trapped where as they anticipated timely receipt of a green card, their wait exceeds seven or more years. In addition, all future employment-based green card applicants effectively would be barred from applying for many years.
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snram4
01-22 05:48 PM
That is always one of the option for me. You do not need to tell that. Similarly everyone has the same choice. If some thing does not work out in USA anyone can find an excellent opportunity in India. Not just, if anyone like to go to India they can go anytime. No need to worry about GC or H1b issues
Then please pack your bags and leave the country in the next flight.
Then please pack your bags and leave the country in the next flight.
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priderock
03-27 02:13 PM
Please do not use offensive language. Despite our disagreements we must be mature in our language. I request you to please edit your post.
.........................
Why don't you tell us how much you bought your labor for? Show us a proof that you have not bought it.
...............................
........................
It is with such mentaility they are brought up with in their country- Currption and getting things done with money. ........................................... In my country people contribute only when they fear god in temples, for medical treatment or to astrologers!!
........................whenever someone is diagnosed with a substitute labor cancer. Yes it is a cancer that is worsening retrogression further.
..................................
Now if someone argues with me on this post, then it will mean that either that person has himself bought a substitute labor or is looking for one.............
:confused:
.........................
Why don't you tell us how much you bought your labor for? Show us a proof that you have not bought it.
...............................
........................
It is with such mentaility they are brought up with in their country- Currption and getting things done with money. ........................................... In my country people contribute only when they fear god in temples, for medical treatment or to astrologers!!
........................whenever someone is diagnosed with a substitute labor cancer. Yes it is a cancer that is worsening retrogression further.
..................................
Now if someone argues with me on this post, then it will mean that either that person has himself bought a substitute labor or is looking for one.............
:confused:
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darslee
07-03 10:24 PM
I don't know about it. Anyone with details should post summary.
I think it is not relevent for EAD/AP but we can use it when we need it
Once a child turns 21 he/she can no longer be filed with the primary applicant. However, once the I485 is filed with USCIS the child is regarded as "safe" regardless of how long the USCIS takes to ajudicate the I485.
I have that very situation. My son turn 21 in mid-January 2008. The original July brought great relief from years of worrying about whether our PD would become "current" in time. We scrambled to get ready to file 2nd July, only to have everything collapse around us again. :(
Hope the info clarifies the "age out" situation!
I think it is not relevent for EAD/AP but we can use it when we need it
Once a child turns 21 he/she can no longer be filed with the primary applicant. However, once the I485 is filed with USCIS the child is regarded as "safe" regardless of how long the USCIS takes to ajudicate the I485.
I have that very situation. My son turn 21 in mid-January 2008. The original July brought great relief from years of worrying about whether our PD would become "current" in time. We scrambled to get ready to file 2nd July, only to have everything collapse around us again. :(
Hope the info clarifies the "age out" situation!
more...
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dealsnet
09-04 05:26 PM
Now I think new people are running IV.
Aman Kapoor (Walden Pond) is not controlling now. That is the reason these idiots have got the admin previlages. Now they do nothing worthwhile. Bunch of jockers.
If this was about you being having admin previledges,you wud have been taken to trial for misusing this board.....AH...
Aman Kapoor (Walden Pond) is not controlling now. That is the reason these idiots have got the admin previlages. Now they do nothing worthwhile. Bunch of jockers.
If this was about you being having admin previledges,you wud have been taken to trial for misusing this board.....AH...
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Macaca
01-18 08:44 AM
Law clearly tells that there should be valid job position for H1b at the time of filing. For consulting bodyshoppers will bring persons here and search for job. That is clearly violation of law.
Contract job has to be filled in weeks. But, it takes months and years to get H-1B approved. Thus, contracting is inherently speculative. This means, start date of a new H-1B contract and all following contracts, are not guaranteed.
Difference between Job shops and reputed Companies
Indian body shoppers employ a H1b Persons and many of them are in hourly. No project then no pay. No pay in bench is violation of law and both employee and employer are willingly accept that. So our body shoppers are attractive destination for GC aspirants.
The companies which follow rules are forced to pay bench or lay off. Companies may be under risk of heavy loss when there are too many people are in bench. That means companies which follow rules and regulations are making loss in tough times at the same time Body shops always make money and worst case scenario no loss no gain.
The revenue generated by a contractor is from his/her billing only; it is hard to calculate this amount for a non-contracting company like Intel. All contractor overhead (salary, benefits: insurance, H-1B/GC fee, ) and company profit have to come from this billing.
Still Desi companies are not following Labor laws.
I know a company in OHIO still exploiting H1Bs ... but payroll being generated.
Most (all?) US contractors are not paid on bench. Neither are they paid any benefits. (If they get paid on bench and/or benefits, it will be from the fixed overhead of their billing leading to smaller pay check: you are getting the same amount whichever way you want to spread it!)
This inequality was known by everyone including USCIS.
This means, that benched H-1B will stop getting paid on getting GC. Is this equality?
The 20% fraud/abuse that Slumdog Ron Hira barks is violation of such garbage-based laws created by him and Matloff. Another one is H-1B can not pay (some parts of) his/her H-1B/GC fee.
The only genuine laws are H-1B is paid (ignoring bench but including H-1B & GC overhead) below prevailing , company does not exist and H-1B is working in gas station (and increasing competition for Hira/Matloff's thorough bred US born asses).
Contract job has to be filled in weeks. But, it takes months and years to get H-1B approved. Thus, contracting is inherently speculative. This means, start date of a new H-1B contract and all following contracts, are not guaranteed.
Difference between Job shops and reputed Companies
Indian body shoppers employ a H1b Persons and many of them are in hourly. No project then no pay. No pay in bench is violation of law and both employee and employer are willingly accept that. So our body shoppers are attractive destination for GC aspirants.
The companies which follow rules are forced to pay bench or lay off. Companies may be under risk of heavy loss when there are too many people are in bench. That means companies which follow rules and regulations are making loss in tough times at the same time Body shops always make money and worst case scenario no loss no gain.
The revenue generated by a contractor is from his/her billing only; it is hard to calculate this amount for a non-contracting company like Intel. All contractor overhead (salary, benefits: insurance, H-1B/GC fee, ) and company profit have to come from this billing.
Still Desi companies are not following Labor laws.
I know a company in OHIO still exploiting H1Bs ... but payroll being generated.
Most (all?) US contractors are not paid on bench. Neither are they paid any benefits. (If they get paid on bench and/or benefits, it will be from the fixed overhead of their billing leading to smaller pay check: you are getting the same amount whichever way you want to spread it!)
This inequality was known by everyone including USCIS.
This means, that benched H-1B will stop getting paid on getting GC. Is this equality?
The 20% fraud/abuse that Slumdog Ron Hira barks is violation of such garbage-based laws created by him and Matloff. Another one is H-1B can not pay (some parts of) his/her H-1B/GC fee.
The only genuine laws are H-1B is paid (ignoring bench but including H-1B & GC overhead) below prevailing , company does not exist and H-1B is working in gas station (and increasing competition for Hira/Matloff's thorough bred US born asses).
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ryan
08-17 08:38 PM
True greatness is shown by humility, not pride.
Al Gore, Kalam, etc are great personalities.
SRK nah!!
Thousands of South Asians have gone through same treatment.
Growup SRK, don't be such a baby :D.
I have never watched his movies, and i got one more reason not to watch "My name is Khan".
Nicely said mate. I cannot believe the kind of people who're on this forum. Some love to beat you up with all those reds for honest thoughts on someone quite insignificant, like an SRK. He is a guy who gives a hoot and remain oblivious to your dilemma or your struggles and in all probability used the alleged incident at EWR as a Public relations stunt for his new movie. Goes to show some of you truly have no self esteem in yourself. Unfortunate.
Al Gore, Kalam, etc are great personalities.
SRK nah!!
Thousands of South Asians have gone through same treatment.
Growup SRK, don't be such a baby :D.
I have never watched his movies, and i got one more reason not to watch "My name is Khan".
Nicely said mate. I cannot believe the kind of people who're on this forum. Some love to beat you up with all those reds for honest thoughts on someone quite insignificant, like an SRK. He is a guy who gives a hoot and remain oblivious to your dilemma or your struggles and in all probability used the alleged incident at EWR as a Public relations stunt for his new movie. Goes to show some of you truly have no self esteem in yourself. Unfortunate.
samay
07-06 12:03 PM
My LC applied in Feb 2008
LC approved Apr 2008
I-140 Applied May 2008
My 6th yr H1B expires Dec 2008
H1B Maxout Jan 2008
I am short by around 20 days Should i recapture the days by going out of country for 20 days and apply H1B 1yr extension, Will i Qualify for 3 yrs in this case...?
or should i just Apply for I-140 PP in Oct 2008 and 3 yr H1B Extension without worrying about recapturing 20 days.
Hello
In order to qualify for a three year extension one has to have an approved I-140. From the given facts I understand you will be eligible for one year H-1 B extension in February 2008. You can apply for an extension of H-1 B for a recapture of the days you spent outside India. You are not required to get out of US so long as your petition for extension is pending with the USCIS. Alternatively you can apply for premium processing of I-140 (when it commences). The benefit of course will be that you will be able to get a three year extension. You will have to weigh the cost of the PP with the cost of the H-1 B extension.
LC approved Apr 2008
I-140 Applied May 2008
My 6th yr H1B expires Dec 2008
H1B Maxout Jan 2008
I am short by around 20 days Should i recapture the days by going out of country for 20 days and apply H1B 1yr extension, Will i Qualify for 3 yrs in this case...?
or should i just Apply for I-140 PP in Oct 2008 and 3 yr H1B Extension without worrying about recapturing 20 days.
Hello
In order to qualify for a three year extension one has to have an approved I-140. From the given facts I understand you will be eligible for one year H-1 B extension in February 2008. You can apply for an extension of H-1 B for a recapture of the days you spent outside India. You are not required to get out of US so long as your petition for extension is pending with the USCIS. Alternatively you can apply for premium processing of I-140 (when it commences). The benefit of course will be that you will be able to get a three year extension. You will have to weigh the cost of the PP with the cost of the H-1 B extension.
richana
07-30 06:59 PM
Thanks Thampi, people let us post some more avoidance techniques to be used subtle or not, this is a scourge we need to get rid of.
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